about counting in my mind

[Schreck]

I'am just interested in, how you count odd meters.
(I hope, this is the right word.)
I mean "for example" 7/8.
I really need to count, if I play over the barline,
becouse I'am not used enough, to play 7/8 for example without counting.
Of course, I don't need to count, if I can be sure, that the bass man counts right.
but we all know, why a bassman is a bassman. HaHa !

but anyway.

I count 7/8 like

- one two three four one two three -

and so on.

I don't really like the other way round, but sometimes, it seems to be necessary,
because the song is written like

- one two three one two three four -

especially, if the structure of the song is like,

- one two three one two three four -

and the next barline is just the seven like

- one two three four five six seven -,

I always have a problem to continue with

- one two three one two three four -

I prefer very much the other way like

- one two three four one two three -

but why ?

what is really a secret for me, how I should count,
if the bar line is FOR EXAMPLE 3 times 7/8.
so, the result is 21 and I don't want to crash the cymbal every 7.
I want to really play OVER the barline of for example 3 times 7.
are there any rules, how my mind is been able to keepp this 21 in mind
in the best way ?

if you understand nothing, please don't hesitate to ask me about the sense of this post.

[XNavyDrummer]

One approach is to always think of odd time signatures in terms of groups of 2s and 3s. The order depends on how the band/song is doing the grouping. So in 7/8 if the bass is playing 2 2 3 then you should probably stay with rhythms based around those patterns.

The other thing that I've found really helpful, is to not concentrate on each eighth note but on the quarter note for each group of 2 and the first and third eighth note for each group of 3. I learned this from Glenn Stuart, lead trumpet from the old Don Ellis band. This was also reiterated by some middle eastern musicians that I've gigged with.

[alexsanguinetti]

To Schreck (who is from Germany but has american relatives) :

You are getting an answer from Munich.

Hi, here is how I do it, I hope it helps you:

I don't count if I'm playing odd metters same as I don't count if I'm playing in 4. I do count if I'm reading a chart (in both cases).


If you are trying to learn how to play in a general 7 because you are not yet at a level you can deal with it without counting I would sugest counting all numbers: ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR-FIVE-SIX-SE/ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR-FIVE-SIX-SE/...

That if you are talking about improvising, because if you are still not there also (sorry, I have no info about where you are) you should write down a pattern and try to read it repeating and repeating until it's realy natural and you don't need to read it anymore.

If I play in that meter (7/8) (again, I do it without counting), I "play of" a bass (not bassdrum) pattern I have in my mind (sometimes could be also the melody of the tune), not out of numbers. That bass part I use as a reference in my head has to do with the bass part the bass player plays IN THAT TUNE. The bass player probably plays that exactly or ALSO "PLAYS OF" THAT ONE.

If you have a drum computer you can try to practice with it too (putting a rhythm or trying to emulate a bass pattern), to get that metter and/or that especific way of playing the metter "under your fingers".

If the tune is 21/8 BRING YOUR CALCULATOR!:

If you have to play over 21/8 you aproach it the same way as if you play in 7 or in 4/4, meaning you have to play of something that has relation with the ESPECIFIC TUNE you are going to play in 21/8 (unless your objective is JUST to play in that time signature ALONE, then you can just play anything that ammounts that meter).

As I said previously, it works like in 4/4 because it's not the same to play Jazz, Cha-Cha-Cha, Rock, etc. 'though all are in 4/4 (and not even all songs in one especific style would be the same), so not all the 7/8 or 21/8 are alike, each tune will have it's caracteristic.

All the references you can get from other drummers that have done this are invaluable (Cobham, Mouzon, Husband, etc.), meaning, listening to records of how other drummers approached these things. If some other drummer already did (recorded) this song you want to play (previous drummer with that band?) THAT is also a VERY important reference you want to get.


If the tune is in 21/8 I would say it would not be 3 times 7/8 otherwise most likely it would be WRITTEN in 7/8 (although you can find all kinds of things...).
Sometimes, nevertheless, you can use as a DEVICE playing 3 times 7/8 in a tune that is 21/8 (that does not fit MUSICALY 3 times 7/8) as EVENTUAL "contrasting element", like playing 3/4 against 4/4 for a certain number of measures to create a certain "TENSION".

Best regards,
Alex Sanguinetti
http://www.alexsanguinetti.com

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Alex Sanguinetti ]</font>

[Schreck]

thank's andy. perhaps, the problem is my music culture.
I have heard from bulgarian music for example, that the 4 is not very wellknown.
perhaps is just a matter of experience and what kind of mothermilk you drink.
mine was definately a 4-bar mothermilk.





thanks alex, the man from munich with italian relatives perhaps.
so, shall we speak bavarian ?

I will try first, to play just the 7 over and over as you said.
I have no problem to play the seven, if I know what I'am going to play.
but this special moments, when I want to make a short journey,
and start something and don't know, where I will arrive,
ended from time to time in the nirwana.
I openend my eyes and mentioned, that I didn't arrive where I expected.
that's really very intreresting for the other musicians ... ;-)

by the way. Did you play 16 years ago or so ayotte drums and perform at the frankfurt
musikmesse ?

[alexsanguinetti]

Dear Schreck,
Regarding your question:

"by the way. Did you play 16 years ago or so ayotte drums and perform at the frankfurt
musikmesse ?"

Yes, I'm the same person.

If you go to my site you can watch some videos of that period (actually 18 years ago)

ex. Video 4: http://site238.webhost4life.com/alex...onSolo1987.wmv


as well as more recent stuff

ex. Video 3: http://site238.webhost4life.com/alex...VideoAJazz.wmv

ex. Video 5: http://site238.webhost4life.com/alexsanguine/Jam2.wmv


etc.

Best regards,
Alex Sanguinetti
http://www.alexsanguinetti.com

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 06, 2005 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Alex Sanguinetti ]</font>

[FlamTriplet]

You can also count 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 in 4/4.

Or play a 4/4 groove. but count 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 over the bar.

I believe if you have to count, it should be out loud, not in your head. Your chest cavity needs to feel the beats as well.

As Alex said, it is best to have melody or bass line to hear in your head.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 07, 2005 01:12 AM: Message edited by: FlamTriplet ]</font>

[PocketPlayer]

Go find a 5th grade math book and study fractions...seriously. It all comes together nicely. Equivalent fractions, improper fractions, percentages and fractions, number lines and circle graphs. Once the computations and concepts are in your mind and can be recalled as a reflex, you can then make it feel good musically.

[LDGuy]

Yeah, the amount of similarity between a lot of maths and odd times is quite useful. I usually sing maths questions in my head if it helps... hehe.

Seriously, the way i deal with counting odd times is to relate it to the nearest even quarter note time sig. For example, with seven, i would count something like "one, two, three, fourone, two, three, four..." etc, so i'm counting quarters essentially, but with the last quaver cut off.

So, with 11/8, i would count "one, two, three, four, five, sixone, two, three, four, five, six"

This is essentially it...
<font face="courier new">
11/8?0---0---0---0---0---0-?0---0---0---0---0-?0---0---0---0---0-?

7/8?0---0---0---0-?0---0---0---0-?0---0---0---0-?0---0---0---0-?
</font>

Compared to a bar of 4/4, which is
<font face="courier new">
4/4?0---0---0---0---?0---0---0---0---?0---0---0---0---?
</font>

Of course various subdivisions can be layered, but it essentially allows you to focus more on what the band are playing and less on what your supposed to be counting division-wise.

The same applies to 16th note meters. If i were to sing a couple of bars of 15/16, it would be something like

One---Two---Three---OneTwoThreeOne---Two---Three---OneTwoThree...

which is
<font face="courier new">
15/16?0---0---0---0oo?0---0---0---0oo?0---0---0---0oo?</font>

So, in conclusion, relate your time sigs to something you know, so you can concentrate more on the band. Try and still keep that natural movement Weckl talks about (which is why i'm doing this in quarters and not 16ths). Think about the underlying pulse. And above all, listen.

HTH